Impersonal Service

Guy: Welcome to Service Design Principles. I'm Guy Martin, joined by the author of the Service

Design Principles series of Books, founder of the Swiss Innovation Academy and Service Design

Maestro the elegant Daniele Catalanotto. Hi, Daniele!

Daniele: Thanks, Guy. Such a pleasure to be with you today.

Guy: Same here. So each episode we look at some of the principles from your book Service Design

principles 1 to 100. And today we're talking about impersonal services. So in service design,

we often try and remember that the relationships that we have between humans and other humans,

although the reality is that it's often between humans and organizations, and that's where there

can be a big opportunity to make a small change to a service to make it less impersonal. So

where could we start, Daniele? .

Daniele: Thanks so much for the question. I think it's a very important question because

there is this this bug, you know, that we have in our minds, which is we are an organization.

My friend who was a storyteller, he often when when he explained storytelling to organizations,

he often one of the things he says is you might think because you are in an organization, you

have to be serious because you are an organization. You can't tell stories just to

remember you, to remind to you. You are human listening, so to speak, lik humans, you know,

and and is doing that very well. And that's kind of the reminder that that you brought in and

that I think we we need as maybe the first element is there's this mindset shift that even

if we are an organization it's a it's a bunch of humans that are in it. But to get very practical,

you know, that's always what I love with these tiny principles is that it's stuff that you can

apply right away.

Daniele: And it's one principle is the one which is called ask unnecessary emotional information

and this is basically something that happened to, I think, not something that happened to my wife

when she was, you know, buying her dress for our wedding. That's something very emotional,

obviously. And and the guy who sold it to her did something very smart. So she she picked the

dress. She was very happy, you know, And you know, how how how people get into a situation

taking a lot of pictures. It's it's a very emotional and stuff. And so it's already a very

emotional moment. But the guy doing the the sale at the end said one thing that changed

everything for her. He said, what's the future name you'll use after your wedding? And then she

said, Oh, it's going to be Joelle Catalanotto. Okay. So that's what I'm going to write on the

receipt. And so he acknowledged that there was something, you know, that was very personal,

that was not necessary, you know, for his he ran it. The Syrian doesn't care if it's the the the

the maiden name or the delay, the name that comes after, you know, the systems don't care

about that stuff. But by asking that little unnecessary question, he showed oh, I'm I'm here

I'm a human and I'm interested that a tiny bit in your life. And this changed completely for

her the relationship. So when she came back, she didn't tell me about the dress, which is

interesting. She told me, Did you know what he asked? And then she she explained a lot about

that. And so that's very interesting to me.

Guy: Yeah, he was probably the first to use that name with her as well. Right?

Daniele: Exactly. So imagine how emotional that is. You

Guy: Yeah.

Daniele: know, especially obviously, this is a very Swiss thing. I always have to say that

because, you know, in Switzerland, there is kind of this culture of taking the name of more of

one on another can be in both ways, obviously. But it's something that is quite usual and quite

common and that people kind of like the name of the change of name is something that is kind of

a ritual that is that is that is quite emotional for people and therefore for him doing that, he

was the first one to say, I recognize this ritual and we in it together

Guy: Yep.

Daniele: and I'm giving you hints of what will happen, which is very lovely

Guy: right? No, that's smart. I mean, maybe it's easy, though, when it's a wedding dress, right?

Because there's already emotion at stake. So is there a way that we can ask him unnecessarily

emotional information when you're a different type of business?

Daniele: yeah, I think many businesses do that well. So if it's more you know, salespeople do

that very well, they ask about your kids. You know, it's a very simple thing. It's not

necessary at that moment. But but it gives you it's it gives you a bit of a of a context of the

life of the of the person, you know. So, for example, when you ask about the kid and it's a

two year old that's usually three year old, you know, it gives you a lot of information about

what the person is going through in her life. You know, and it also helps kind of to to then

empathize back and say, oh, okay, So you are you have the tough nights. I see. Yeah. Okay. Well,

you manage such quite well. You know, and and that's kind of like that's one it's totally

necessary in a way, you know, because

people don't need to know that. But even if it's emotional, you know, it, it can also give a bit

of a of a business value because you then understand better what the person is going

through. And therefore, you know that, you know, emotionally, you know, they are maybe less awake

than the usual guy would be. And that's kind of an information that's that obviously you can ask,

obviously being smart about it. You know, it's a the usual stuff is looking at at wedding rings

and this kind

Guy: Mm

Daniele: of stuff like yeah seeing that on the laptop there is a kid and say oh a kid photo

they go how many do you have or what's their age? You know, and this kind of stuff. It's

definitely not necessary, but it's a small stuff that you can do. And I've seen that done by

sales guys and it's it changes the

Daniele: conversation

Guy: Yeah. I was going to say, I think salespeople know this intuitively, right? I mean,

even though I know it's kind of like a tactic or it's a it's a sales method to, to, you know,

make it personal. I still fall for it. I remember buying our car and my daughter was

quite a lot younger than she is now. And the salesperson, you know, Yeah, I saw, you know, do

you have a family and, you know, all these questions. But then he started to tailor the

style of the car to the needs that he could perceive. So it's like, oh, you know, we're

talking about a sunroof like a moonroof. And in a way, it's like, okay, that's a bit of a luxury.

It's like, well, have you ever been carsick in the car? Because sometimes looking up through

the moonroof can make you less carsick. And kids often get carsick sometimes, especially when

they're in the back. So I kind of knew it was like, okay, you're leading me down this path

here, but I'm on board, right? I'm with you on this journey because I feel it. You know, you've

made it slightly emotional. I'm aware of it, which is like, you know, placebos still work,

even though, you know, it's a placebo in some cases. So I was aware, but I still sort of fell

for it. Got Oh, yeah. Okay. Well, this is probably the right car for me. I probably should

invest a little bit more in that in that moonroof.

Daniele: yeah And, and it's not because we know that it's a tactic that we don't see the value

in it. You know,

Guy: No.

Daniele: when you say hello, how are you, We all know this is just being polite, you know, but we

still answer the question and say today I'm good. In fact, at the moment I'm not so good. You know,

it's it's it's rituals, you know, and recognizing that sometimes these tactics are

also a bit rituals and that they have to their value also to make it more personal. you know,

when I'm thinking about personal services, I always have in mind my my very good friends. And

so I only say the names of people who are doing very good stuff or or name of brands that are

doing exceptional stuff. So I will say a name, uh, which is my very good friend Patrizia. She

will recognize herself when she is working at IKEA in Japan at the moment. And the and she, I

worked back in, back in the days and her with her in a consultancy and

Guy: Okay.

Daniele: she was the project manager, you know, who was able to transform projects into

relationships. And one of the things that she did and which I love to observe is her PS in her

work emails. Her PS was always something about the day, something personal, you know, where so

but she said, you know, Oh, PS, just came back from holidays, super excited to get started

again, you know. But but then she was specific, you know, she said, oh, just back from Bali, so

happy. And then what would happen is that she would have PS conversations. So there was always

kind of like the business conversation and the

Guy: Yep.

Daniele: PS conversation happening.

Guy: Interesting

Daniele: And so she got really deep into into relationships with with the people she she

worked with so that, you know, when she left, you know, people were like very sad that she was

the person leaving because they said, no, no, no, We we are not here because of the consultancy.

You know, we didn't stay because of the consultancy. We stayed because of her.

Guy: Right?

Daniele: And that's that's kind of magic, you know. And so this is another example of how this

unnecessary personal information, sometimes it's asking one, but sometimes it's it's better also

to just give one, you know, giving one as we are people of reciprocity. You know, you I'm giving

you a personal information. What will happen is you will give me you will give me one back, and

then suddenly we are in a level which is not anymore. Guy is speaking to Daniele, Guy from

Neolux, Daniele from Swiss Innovation Academy. It's very serious and stuff,

Guy: Mm hmm.

Daniele: but now it's we're talking about our kids, you know, and

Guy: Yeah.

Daniele: our little struggles and it's very different.

Guy: No, that's really interesting. I mean, it's. It's good advice for personal relationship

management as well, or building personal relationships, because, you know, I mentioned at

the start it humans are dealing with other humans.But at work sometimes we see the roles

and we say even like, like our boss or people in other departments are that's the, the, the

developers and it's quite impersonal, as you say. But when you start to make those connections,

then it can be just as easy, like a piece. Then it starts to break down those those professional

organizational walls and you get real relationships out of it. And that actually

benefits your professional life as well. Right.

Daniele: absolutely

Daniele: And, and it's it's a very good reminder that you're giving us here, whi is that,

you know, there are kind of these different levels of services. And so now we would we being

a bit more meta but I think it's it's a very good reminder. So there is this very simple

practical level, you know, that are these services and principles stuff that you can do to

help customers, you know, feel better and feel more respected. And then there is kind of like

the other side, which is, Oh, but now I can use that at work to, you know, to smooth into

relationships at work. And then there is the last level, which is that if it works for work

and making customers happy, why not use it in family life, parties and stuff, you know? And so

there are kind of these levels and and I think it's a very good reminder here to say once

you've experimented with this kind of stuff, you know, let it flow to the other parts of your

life because that's when you will get the most value of it. And it's true for services and it's

true for many practices. You know, doing mindfulness when you do it just 5 minutes a day

and then suddenly you start to be mindful doing your work, then you start to be mindful doing

your parenting stuff, you know, and then suddenly it gets it gets a bit further. But

that's that's definitely a thing to see that it can spread out. But

Guy: Mm hmm. Everything's interconnected.

Daniele: yeah, indeed, indeed.

Guy: Yeah. Although I think if I presented my wife with a service blueprint on how to make a

nice evening at home or something that might not go down so well, bu for some people, it might.

Daniele: yeah, indeed. And maybe the service blueprint is not the best idea. Definitely. But

you know, maybe doing a5y with your wife on the, on a parenting issue that you're both faced with,

you know is a good exercise. You know,

Guy: know,

Daniele: I always

Daniele: tell this story to to to the design studies I have is when I teach them how to do

workshops and and affinity mapping. So and this kind of stuff, I always take them, tell them,

you know, the day my wife announced that we're going to have a kid, obviously there was the

emotional moment and then there was the oh shit moment is we going to have a kids, is going to

be serious and we're not prepared at all. And and I tell them, Do you know what I did? I took

out Miro, which is one of these whiteboard apps, a we just packed all the sticky notes of all

what was carrying in our heads, you know, and just put it there and then started to map it

into, okay, this is stuff that we it's not our responsibility. Oh, these are more principles

that we want to teach.

Guy: want.

Daniele: These are very administrative tasks that we need to do next week and next month,

etc.. And then suddenly we were like, okay, now we can be happy again about having a kids.And

and it shows that, you know, these methods obviously not all, but they can spread out in,

in the different parts of your life.

Guy: Yeah. I've heard stories of people where they have with. They've got young children,

they've got toddlers, and suddenly they're able to much better communicate with the executive

teams. I don't know if there's any relationship or correlation there, but I've heard these

stories, you know,

Daniele: I've heard them do it

but if we'd came back to to the more daily stuff because the podcast is called Service Design

Principles so I'm going to go back to to Earth level and, and maybe mentioned one one last of

these principles in this impersonal topic, one which is very dear to me, which is this idea of

Daniele: making it personal is different for every culture. And, you know, in in Switzerland

we have kind of a fascination sometimes for for the states because obviously, you know, the

states have such a big, impressive culture that sometimes we steal stuff from them, but

sometimes also

stuff gets brought into our culture. And an example is how some said some cafes that come

from from the states in Switzerland ask you a question that is very weird for us Swiss. It's

you know, they they ask you what's your name, what's your first name? And then they want to

put it on the coffee and the first time I had this interaction and it was a time where, you

know, we didn't have all the movies about the states as as open

Guy: Mm hmm.

Daniele: as today. It feels very weird to me because I was like, Who are you? Why do you want

to need what? Why do you need my first name?

Guy: Mm hmm.

Daniele: What's happening here?

Guy: That's

Daniele: You know?

Guy: very personal.

Daniele: Yeah. And, and you know, this is a chain and you're talking to me in so in, in

French, we have two levels. You know, we have "tu", which is you, but we know each other, and

we have "vous", which is you, but it's very polite and, and we don't know each other. And so

she's speaking more to me in two, which means

Guy: Mm

Daniele: we we are besties already, you know, like,hey ,

Guy: hmm.

Daniele: we're not besties here.

Guy: Yeah. Slow down a bit.

Daniele: Slow down a bit. And then I realized, oh, know, this is just a cultural element that

comes from

Guy: Mm

Daniele: states.

Guy: hmm.

Daniele: And that at that time didn't make any sense in Switzerland. And because people are

just like, Oh, but we don't have the cultural reference for that. And it felt very weird. So I

think it brings us back that sometimes being personal in one country will look very

impersonal in another country, and that's okay. And so we can we have to be mindful of these

cultural elements that have what's personal in Japan is not the same thing that and what's

personal in Switzerland than what's personal. And to states. And obviously then you can go

even regional. You know, what's personal in Texas is not the same then what's personal in

the region of view in Switzerland and

Guy: Run.

Daniele: and being mindful of that takes a bit of energy. But I think if you can be personal in

the regional cultures specific way, then you're very strong

Guy: And I mean, you're talking about culture as, like, national culture or regional culture. But

there are other types of cultures as well to be aware of, too. You know,

Daniele: you.

Guy: the way people are brought up with their religious upbringing or, you know, just, just,

you know, their education. So people will have a different culture if they've gone through

business school compared to if they've gone through trade school. You know, it's, uh. So

being aware of those those different cultures as well, I think is super important. And I can talk

about culture for a long time, but I'll try and restrain myself here. But one more thing on that,

though, was you mentioned before about the ritual of Hi, how are you? And that's that's

been something that that my wife, who is born in Denmark, she doesn't understand or she finds

irritating, is like, Hi, how are you? It's like you don't really know one another, know how? How

am I? You know, would you be happy if I came round and said, Well, act I've got a you know,

I'm sore in my legs and I've got this rash and, you know, you really don't want to know that, so

don't ask. So it's though those that awareness is really interesting, even on something as

simple as Hi, how are you? As like, okay. Well, it doesn't mean the same for everybody. Not

everyone has that has that ritual.

Daniele: absolutely. B we come to a close, uh, I know that you are very aware of the culture

differences you've trained into these aspects, especially in cultural communication. And what's

one, one kind of nuggets maybe that you have, you know, that when it comes to making things

personal, but working in cross cultures, you know, because it can be very scary, you know,

Guy: Mm hmm.

Daniele: I know that, you know, the way we say hello is very different and very in various

cultures.

What's for you? Maybe a tip or something that you say to avoid that In French we said faux

Guy: Faux

Daniele: pas,

Guy: pas. Mm

Daniele: you know, A

Guy: hmm.

Daniele: Yeah, a mistake,

Guy: Yep.

Daniele: you know, is there is are some tips that you can give to people. So it's, you know,

oh, you're going to work on a global scale. Just do these things to make sure that you're the way

you're going to be personal still is person

Guy: Sure we could make a whole podcast about some of this stuff as well. But, I mean, I guess

at a very basic level is it's okay to research the cultures that you'll be dealing with. You

know, if you know that you're going to be talking like if you're from the US and you're

going to be dealing with someone from Germany, it's okay to get hints for dealing with people

from Germany. A lot of the advice will be stereotypical, but stereotypes come from

somewhere. You know that there's a there's an element of truth, and you'll always have people

that don't meet the stereotype and that that sort of deviate from from the expected cultural

norms of that of that stereotype. But if you know nothing else about the person except from

where they're from, you can make some assumptions and you can sort of step in a

direction where you go, oh, okay, well, they're probably going to respond well to this. So if

we're talking about Germany for example, and we're talking about formal and informal before

with with pronouns addressing German people by their last name can be quite important and a

sign of respect. When you go into Scandinavia and Australia and the US, that's not as as

important. So you, you meet someone for the first time and you say, Oh, hi Jim, or Hi

Daniele, but when you deal with someone from Germany for the first time or and I suppose it's

the same in Switzerland or in regions of Switzerland, then Herr Catalanotto would come

across much better than Daniele. And it's just that sign of respect. And then if they respond

and say, Thanks Guy, then maybe that's an opening to say, okay, maybe we can be on a first

name basis now. So a bit bit of a long winded thing, but I mean, do the research and and

there's plenty of resources out there and most of them are good. says, just to say, yes, it may

be stereotypical, but if you have nothing else to go on, it does come from somewhere. So it's

not a it will mean that you probably make less faux pas

Daniele: yeah. So it's okay to research, learn to stereotype stereotypes, play a bit with them,

and at least the worst thing that may happen is that people say, Oh, I'm not that kind of Swiss

Guy: That

Daniele: guy. It's okay.

Guy: yeah,

Daniele: And

Guy: yeah.

Daniele: but at the same time, I will see that a guy has been someone who has done his homework

and he read that people take out their shoes in Switzerland and

Guy: Right.

Daniele: so and they will tell him

Guy: And

Daniele: it's

Guy: I

Daniele: okay.

Guy: was kind

Daniele: Guy

Guy: of.

Daniele: Yeah, I don't mean that often.

Guy: Hmm. Yeah. I mean that it's um, I guess if again, if we use Germans or Swiss as a

stereotype, they're seen as very timely. Being punctual is extremely important, but not to

everyone. But if you're punctual, that's going to go down well in any case, right.

Daniele: And it,

Guy: So

Daniele: it, it

Guy: it's also about adapting your own style to the people that you're communicating with as

well. And that's, you know, being willing to do that.

Daniele: also, I'm already excited to, to read, uh, to have some readings for my next travel.

Guy: One more thing I wanted to talk about, Daniele, was the principle of "Just Remember Me".

Can you go a bit more into "Just Remember Me"?

Daniele: Yeah. You know, there is this great moment where when when you're new in a city and

you visit a little sort of one of those little services, you know, a bakery or a cafe or

something like that, and you enter the service and in front of you, there is someone else who

you see is a regular and you see a kind of very different interaction happening, which is the

person to say hello and the person who is doing the service or the barriers, the baker or I

don't know how you call these guys in English, just giving the person directly what she wants.

You know, it's like, Oh, as usual, Pam. Because she remembers the person and she says, and it is

kind of like and say hello to the kids, you know? And then you're like, okay, this is a this is a

cafe I want to stay in. You know, because if I come often enough, they will remember me, you

know, And it's a much more different perspective than if you go to Starbucks and, you know, you

and they ask you your name, misspell it, and then call you Danilo and you have to remember

that, oh, yes, they will never, never get my Italian name right. That's okay. And next time

you come, they will misspell it in another creative way. So it's kind of like a bit of a

difference there

Guy: Right. So for these small businesses, that makes a lot of sense, right? Because you get to

know all of your customers. But for bigger businesses, how scalable is it to be so personal?

Daniele: Indeed today, it's not so much of a big problem anymore. Back in the days when when we

were and it was a bit more difficult. But today was, you know, all of the CRMs and the

automations and all of that stuff, it's it's pretty easy. It's pretty easy. Obviously, you

know, it's easier, I think, for small businesses to do it in a very purposeful way, you know, in

a way that feels genuine, that feels warm and welcoming than the the automation that then, you

know, takes your last name for first name and then misses everything up. You know, that's

that's a bit of a danger when you automate the automated things. But definitely it's possible

to do, uh, and the one thing to remember is when you do this kind of automated thing is to, to

always think, obviously I'm going to do it in the, uh, I want to remember the person, but I

might not have the data for every person. So how do I fall back? Uh, or in a way that is, that

has a bit of grace. So, and a small example is one from my own newsletter where, uh, when

I don't have the name of the person, it just says, Hey, lovely human, you know, which is a

big difference from, hey, uh, first name tag missing, which makes

Guy: it's

Daniele: okay, he doesn't recognize me at all, you know, And at least if you don't remember the

person personally, at least you can remember something of the humanity, you know? And, like,

lovely human is very much different than. Hey, sir. Hello, Uh, madam. Which might seem very

Guy: Mm.

Daniele: obviously polite, but very boring, you know? How can you also play with those things

when you fail to be personal? Uh, how can you still do something? It remembers me. Y know, I'm

really bad with names, but usually people, at least they hope, don't notice it so much because

instead of, you know, being like, Hey, Nick,you just say, Hey, awesome guy. You know, at least

in French, we have this kind of like, tiny things that you can say, like Big Boss, you know,

and it's kind of a compliment, you know, which replaces the first name.

Guy: Right?

Daniele: And at least the person, you know, is is kind of, oh, yeah, he sees a quality, you

know, and therefore, even then, you know, even if it's impersonal, you still can, you know,

greet in a way that is maybe not the first name because you don't remember it, but you remember

that it's a great musician, you know, And

Guy: You

Daniele: it's like, hey, Guitar Hero.

Guy: know, Right.

Daniele: And

Guy: Yeah.

Daniele: then it's like, Oh, the person recognized me And so I'm curious, you know, in,

in your own experiences because I always tell you that you are a service design expert as you

use a lot of, of services, obviously, and in your own experiences using different services,

what is something where you feel like, oh, now I'm recognized as myself, you know, and this

makes me feel seen not just as a, uh, customer number 2 to 3,

Guy: Mm hmm.

Daniele: but as

Daniele: a guy.

Guy: Mm. I mean, I think it's this kind of links into some of the other principles that we've

talked about as well, in that if you have the information about me, like, if you have some

information about, like my date of birth, for example, then it's not difficult to use it. So

if I'm engaged with a, uh, like a larger organization, which I know is not going to

really know me personally, but I know that they have my some of my personal information, I guess

I get a bit frustrated when they don't utilize that, you know, or, or I get surprised when they

do. So if I get a, you know, we saw it was your birthday. Happy birthday. Okay, that's that's

great. You've got my date of birth. And so you've used it in a way that that is it kind of

personalizes or helps build the relationship. And then when you have another interaction and

maybe you've bought several things of the same type from this organization before the last

three times. So the fourth time they may say, you know, did you want to buy this again? Or

here's something else that we we think you might like, you know, some simple recommendations, but

really, based on the previous interactions I've had with them, then that's that's a surprising

thing to me. And it should I don't think it should be surprising in a way, because if you've

got that information, then then, you know, utilize it. Yeah, and I guess that's why I liked

that that, that, that principle of remember me. It's not just remember me and my name, but also

remember my preferences. So there is, um, there's an idea in we're going to talk about

hotels again because we always end up here in our hotel. There was a technology that that that

was coming out. And I think this is still probably is where you could control the

temperature of the room through automation so that you could save money when the room wasn't

occupied and you could provide good comfort when you knew the room was occupied. Now, if you have

that linked up to the property management system, so in the reservation system, you know who's

arriving and you know, okay, well, this person is coming from maybe the Middle East. And we

know that every time they come here, they sit there. The air conditioner to 19 degrees right.

It's quite cool because they're used to very strong air conditioning. The next time the

person comes, then we should preset their air conditioning to 19 degrees because we know this

about them. We've got that information and we're used to it. So that's that's something about

remembering me and remembering my preferences as well.

Daniele: Yeah

Daniele: , absolutely. It's crazy. You know, how much

data or pieces of information we share. You know that people organizations have about us stored

somewhere, you know, and they never get used in the right way. You know, it's kind of funny

where when it's like you, you have the the birthday of the person, but then you ask them to

fill a form and you don't pre fill it with the information you already have. Obviously, it's a

bit technical. It's it's the work to make it happen like that, you know but, but this kind of

pre feeling thing

makes a lot of sense, especially when you're a big organization and that's a that's a very

smart and lovely way to show we've seen you we remember you We do the work for you you know and

just using the data properly is kind of like a sign

Guy: hmm.

Daniele: of.

Guy: We respect your time.

Daniele: Exactly. It's a sign of respect, you know, uh, and especially for big organizations,

I think for, for smaller organizations, we, we are much, much more forgiving, you know, And we

think, okay, you know, if my bakery doesn't remember exactly my birthday, it's okay. You

know, they, they, they don't have the the software tools and the things to do it.

Strangely enough, the bakery remembers your birthday. Even if they don't have a software

because they have less

Guy: Yeah,

Daniele: people

Guy: they're

Daniele: to

Guy: more likely

Daniele: it.

Guy: to.

Daniele: But

Guy: Yeah,

Daniele: that that's kind of like

Guy: because

Daniele: a

Guy: they care.

Daniele: Yeah

Guy: Yeah.

Daniele: because they care. Exactly. And uh, and I think that's, that's kind of like another lens

is, you know, what, what can you do with the data you have about people to show that you care.

You know, sometimes it's just not using it or saying to people, We have this data, we're going

to use it for for, you know, we have to use it from a legal stand of, uh, from a legal point of

view for validating your account and stuff. But now we've deleted it. You know, that's a very

respectful thing to do so that in other times it's we have the data, so we're going to feel

stuff for you because we already have it, you know, and, and I think and sometimes it's just,

you know, revealing that, yes, we have a lot of data about you and this is all of the data we

have about you, especially for these big organizations there, that the play you the way

you play with the data is a bit of a way to showing this is how much we respect you. And

it's quite an interesting, interesting bit.

Guy: Well, I'll certainly remember you. So thanks again for today, Daniele. It's been a

great conversation.

Daniele: yeah, obviously. And I always remember to to misspell your name and say, "ɡiː",

instead of "ɡaɪ" because you know, it, it adds a little bit of fun.

Guy: Je ne sais quoi.

Daniele: Absolutely

Guy: All right. Thanks, Daniele. And, and hopefully our listeners remember us for the next

episode.