Naming

Guy Welcome to the Service Design Principles on Guy Martin, joined by the author of the Service Design Principles series of Books, founder of the Swiss Innovation Academy and Service Design Practitioner. The emblematic Daniele Catalanotto. Hi, Daniele.

Daniele I agree. Such a pleasure as always. Not only to see how you fit your face, but also here, your lovely and beautiful way voice, and to get the chance to chat with your awesome brain.

Guy Thank you very much. I don't know how to respond to that many compliments in a row, but I'll just say thank you and say likewise. So that's the easiest way out, isn't it? So I've said emblematic today because an emblem is like a symbol representing something else. And every episode we look at some of the principles from your book service Design Principles 1 to 100. And today we're talking about naming what better emblem than that? So the book has three principles that relate specifically to naming. And as we're both parents and unlike certain tech industry billionaires, we recognize the importance of a good an appropriate name when it comes to our children. So a name is just as important in business as well.

Daniele Yes, absolutely. I think there are a few stories that they can share about the importance of a name Back in the days when my parents set up a church in the south of Switzerland. So my parents are both pastors. They set up a church in in the south of Switzerland, and it was a church that wasn't yet of that region. And therefore it was very new for the people out there and they had a bit of a problem. The way usually that church calls its location in French was post. It's like it was called a post, like a post office, which made sense from a historical perspective and things in other regions. But in that region, if you called it a post, people would say, Oh, is this the post office? You know, And they will come in and and say, do you do you sell stamps, you know, and which creates that kind of a very strange relationship for people coming to buy stamps. And then senior pastor say, no, but I can speak about God if you want. So so therefore they had to think about how do we call this, you know, and and there was kind of like a reflection on if we don't choose a name, what will happen is people will choose a name for it.

Guy Hmm.

Daniele And which we might not like, which might not give the right values. And so the reflection that they had, they said we don't want our members to call it the post, because if they call it the Post, it makes no sense for the people in the region. And so they said, we're going to call that location at Max's because the street name was called Max Street. And therefore they said, oh, let's call it at Max's. So it's it kind of has this connotation of so this is kind of a family place. It's a place where where we meet and where we're and, you know, like a friend's place. And what they noticed is to make that shift happen, you know, over weeks and months, you know, they had to use that name again and again and again and say to each other, oh, we're going to meet at Max's. We're going to where? Yes, you at the 1 p.m. at Max. Just to create the thing. And now it's like 20 years later. My parents don't work there anymore. But there are new people who are the pastors there. And still today, when people speak of that location, they say, Let's meet at Max's.

Guy Right.

Daniele Not at the post.

Guy Hmm.

Daniele Which is weird name or as something which would be an acronym know because often then people tell you make an acronym of the long name of. You know, and we'd say, Oh, let's meet at.. It's "The Salvation Army". They would say, Oh, let's meet at TSA.

Guy Okay.

Daniele Again, wouldn't mean anything. It wouldn't bring any value. And so they were able to to to buy by design in some way, you know, by by design, choosing a name that has a lot of meaning. And I think this is something that we we can do not only for places, but also for projects.

Guy Hmm. Hmm. Hmm

Daniele You know, when you get a new project at work, you know, think, what is the way I'm going to name the file. Each file, you know, when you have file names, usually you have presented John and then something Project X,

Guy Mmhmm.

Daniele you know, instead of being Project X, what's the project name that you're going to give it the project, you know, the folder name, the channel name, so that it always gives kind of either the values or the vision that you want for, for people to have.

Guy Yeah, it's like the codename for the project. And in many cases, sometimes the the code name or the project name ends up being the product name in the end as well, because it just so suited that that product really well.

Daniele Absolutely. And and, you know, a project named can really make or break a project. This is something that I've seen often, is that we are not careful about the project name, you know, and it can create expectations, you know. So for a good example is if you say, oh, we're going to call it strategy or, you know, it's a strategy, and then if you call it project, this is a strategy project, you know, it might create the expectation, Oh, we're going to change everything so I can bring my ideas about changing this and that and that, you know, And then all the stakeholders might say, Oh, if you're doing your strategy, we need to be in the conversation because, hey, it's a strategy.

Guy Hmm.

Daniele Important. So we want you to have power on that. Then it starts to become a mess. But if you say no, it's obviously it's something strategic, but it's a strategy of what you know or what strategy is it? Or maybe the word is not strategy, you know, is future of the service. Like, okay, this is another thing. It's much more narrow, much more clear, and therefore a name at work also creates a is extremely important, but also a name for the the your the service you have for the clients is makes a lot of sense to a little example also is when I speak of the Swiss Innovation Academy I've always thought how do I say you? Way because Swiss Innovation Academy is way too long, you know. And so I never say as a a I always said academy and I forced myself to also when I say to my wife, Oh, well, what did you work on today? I said, Oh, the academy stuff. So that's that. When people speak about it in a short way, they use that short thing, which for me gives much more value than if it was an acronym, because the danger with acronyms is there are so many acronyms and they don't mean anything. So think about how your long company name, your long service name, your long project name, what will be the short version of it also?

Guy So in a former employer of mine, there were different groups of people that would come together for different things. And depending on what the purpose of the the group was, it would have a different name. So there would be some committees and there would be some councils and there would be some working groups and they would all have different meanings. And it got to the point where it's like, are is this a council or is this a committee or is this a working group? And it ended up that as part of the governance of the organisation, we said, okay, well this is what a council does. A council has representation from these different divisions and they can make a strategic decision about the thing that the council is made for. A committee doesn't have that decision making ability. They have representatives from the different divisions, but they need to defer to a higher power to make the actual decision. They can provide recommendations and then working groups are things where you're taking an existing strategy and you're saying, how do we execute on that strategy? And you still have different disciplines that are crossing over to join that working group. But then it was clear that, okay, it wasn't there to create new strategies or make those sorts of decisions around that, but to decide how to implement something. So before these definitions were made, the names were random. It was like, okay, well, I'm going to create this Health and Safety Council. But then then there would be some people that would say, I have certain expectations of what a council does, and that would be different to what other people, including the people inside, were.

Daniele Absolutely. And it shows that there is a lot in the name and that sometimes having a bit of clarity, how we name things, you know, what is a committee, what is a working group, etc., makes a lot of sense. And the same goes for strategy. You know, like

Guy Mm

Daniele when we say strategy, what we what do we mean with it? You know, what's what's the meaning behind the word? The word and the and especially for within on the backstage, kind of like the workplace stuff, that's where you can also kind of reveal why did we choose that name,

Guy hmm.

Daniele you know, So we're calling this group. Committee, Zebra, because we are working between the lines, you know? Okay. Now, I understand why you're called the zebra as it's not just because it's a fancy African horse. Now it makes much more sense. And yeah, that's definitely something. And but but then there is, you know, as I'm going to steal your your role because your role usually in the podcast is then to say but that really. Context. Be aware. This rule doesn't apply to everything, and I think I'm going to steal that throughout. Because the other thing is obviously it's important to name things.

Guy H.

Daniele But it's not needed to reinvent the wheel every time and to invent silly names for standard stuff. You know, Apple does that wonderfully well. You know, where everything they do, you know, it's like the latest is at the time of recording is you know, they are not calling their VR headset a VR headset to it's spatial computing.

Guy Ron.

Daniele Which is a completely odd thing, obviously, you know, which there is some some some some reasons behind it and. Etc.. There is also kind of like this notion that sometimes, you know, just using the names that have been defined for specific things, you can use those. And I think your example of in the workplace makes sense also to see, you know, how how do usually other companies or organizations use the names? Committees, work work group, etc.,

Guy Hmm. Hmm.

Daniele or council. And what's the definition? And can we just use one of those definitions as a bit of a standard?

Guy Hmm. Hmm.

Daniele So it's a bit of this thing when it comes to naming. Sure. Using a name. Having a name for it is important so that we know what we are talking about. But sometimes there is always your name that exists for it. There is already a standard. And if the standard works? No, just use the standard. Don't call it spacial computing when it's just an idea. Or in the case of Apple, maybe it just made sense just to say it, to show people it's different enough.

Guy I think I think like when you brought the Apple example up, I feel that they have used this spatial computing term because they want to define the the space that they're working. They don't they're not saying this isn't just another VR headset. This is a whole new way of working and define that. So I kind of understand that in a way. But then if you're trying to get someone on board to help them understand it, then you can't just start with spatial computing. You sort of go, Oh, well, this is Apple's version of a VR headset. You kind of have to relate it back to some other term that the person knows already and then they can make that connection and say, Oh, okay. So that's kind of what this is, but it's just Apple's version of it

Daniele Absolutely. Absolutely. And so that that shows that, you know, have no wing or at least, you know, before. I think that's also that is that. If you invent a new name for it, you know, there should be good reason for it. And

Guy Hmm.

Daniele I think obviously Apple has made the reflection and they thought they thought, hey, we we have a bit of another take on it. And this take is different enough that we're going to we're going to call it in another way, because we think there is a kind of a a fear of rupture. Can we say that that in English or kind of like a big difference between

Guy Hmm. Hmm.

Daniele how it's done before and how we do it and therefore it needs another name,

Guy Yeah.

Daniele but in often off and also sometimes you don't need a fancy name for that specific thing and you can just call it what it is.

Guy Mm hmm

Daniele I think in the in the book I speak about an example from a research from the News and Norman Group where on an NGO website, you know, they had kind of a special naming, you know, for. For volunteers and members where they said, Oh, these are called Dreamers here. And then it got people confused, you know, about the whole donating process like they were okay. But I just want to become a member. I don't want to become a dreamer,

Guy Right.

Daniele you know? And and so there was kind of like a bit of a for those who a bit nerdy, a bit of a UX copy issue there, you know.

Guy Mm

Daniele Trying to rename things that are obvious, like donate button and saying, Oh, this is not about donating, it's about giving hope. And I don't want to give hope. I want to give money. When raised money things.

Guy Right.

Daniele That's that's for some aspects. We repeat, we still need to be a bit. Even if it would be fun to have a give hope. But it still should be clear that it's what it is behind it.

Guy Yeah, it's a it's a financial transaction. And not just the Facebook hopes and prayers comment that you're going to do.

Daniele Absolutely.

Guy Was I was going to say that I can think of, uh, a counterexample to this because I can't. I have to play the devil's advocate all the time. But the Disney Corporation, in their theme parks, they have created names for a lot of things which are not standard. So when people visit their parks, they're not visitors, they're they're their guests. And the employees of the park are cast. And then you have like in actually, like in service design, you have a front stage and you have a backstage as well. So they have this when a cast member goes out of sight of the public and into like a service tunnel or something like this, they're going backstage and guests are never allowed backstage, you know, So they've got all this whole naming convention around how they talk about the visitors to the park. And I think it's intentional and it works well because they want to treat everyone like a guest role. And it puts that mindset that for the employee, when they're a cast member and they go on stage, there is a performance that's expected because that's what happens when cast members go on stage, they go on to perform for guests. So having that sort of naming it sounds a bit silly. Like if I went down to the the local supermarket and they started talking about, you know, their cast members, I'd think that they've gone a bit loopy. But for Disney, it it works. So I guess again, it comes back to this idea of context and where it really works for an entertainment company like Disney, Disney to use these these terms, whereas it may not work for another company that's, you know, has nothing to do with, you know, entertainment.

Daniele Yeah, absolutely. And it I think we can have a bit of a two criterias, which are, you know, is the name that you're using context relevant. You know that's I think the question that you're bringing a second one is, you know, does the name add the value in India? For example, in the spirit of what Disney those, you know, same cast. Helps. Also the employee know that once they go to the front stage, they are in another role. They are in the role of being an example for the kids, etc.. So it's not just your normal service job. This is very different. So

Guy Hmm.

Daniele it adds its value. And then the third one, which will be a bit of a bit of a bonus, is, you know, does it create a sense of clarity or does it add fuzziness, as was the example of the donate button, which is not called codes in.

Guy Confusion.

Daniele Exactly confusion. So if we have this physicality, as is saying, you want to name something, okay, Does the name help with the context? Yes. Does it fit with the context? Yes. Does the name add a value? You know where it tells a story. It helps people to realize what they have to do. It gives them an information. And then the third one, the does it add clarity and does it avoid confusion? If all of these things are true, then the name definitely is needed. If not, maybe just revert back to something that's already existing.

Guy Yeah, but I guess that brings up that the to be intentional when you're choosing names

Daniele Absolutely.

Guy as opposed to just, you know, pulling a fun name from a hat and going, Oh, this sounds good. We'll go with that. Think it through.

Daniele Absolutely.

Guy Right.

Daniele And in that. Think it through aspect I think there there is a bit of the last principle in the in the book about that is this principle 47 which says "Don't assume that I know how to spell your company name. ". Especially for fancy made up names, you know. How many "R" are in Fiverr?

Guy Right? Yeah.

Daniele The freelance service. And this is a thing that I learned that I learned the hard way. For example, if you mistype fiver, you might land up on a website that every ten times, you know, sends you to a scam website. This is a thing that's happened to me a few times. So just it's a very sneaky thing to do. So they may though they bought the domain with one hour or less. Someone bought that and most of the time they sent you to the right website. So that's in your browser. You know, your browser remembers that this is a good website.

Guy Hmm.

Daniele Then sometimes, they send you on a casino website and you're like, Oh, I mistyped

Guy Yeah.

Daniele something, you know, and they make money out of it and

Guy Right.

Daniele here what what but this shows is that the company when you create a name you know also think about the ways people might mistyped.

Guy Hmm.

Daniele So that when they search for it, when they type the name, that they don't land in a scammy place that somebody else might think, yeah, maybe in Switzerland, people don't know that Kellogg's has two G's. And so are we going to buy using Kellogg's with one G and instead of an S, a Z? And so we re going to protect a bit of our name by making sure that even if you misspell it, you still end up in a safe place.

Guy Yep. Now, that makes a lot of sense. All right. And I've seen this before in the companies I used to work for. Where you had a lot of A's and S's, and there would be a two S's in a row. So then I would buy the domain name that only had the one s just two to account for those. You know, even if it's just a typo or if it's an intentional misspelling or something. It was a difficult name to say over the phone anyway and say, you know, you'd always have to spell it that up. So I guess if you find yourself spelling out your company name over and over again, then there's a lot of potential for it to be misinterpreted or typo or those sorts of things. So look at the alternatives.

Daniele Seriously. And I know we have 5 minutes left, but for the 5 minutes we have left. I'd love to put you up again in a bit of an uncomfortable seat by asking you what are your tips or or mistakes that you see happening when it comes to naming in your own experiences with services. Do you have any tips to share?

Guy I know of. You know, in the cultural side of things which I've gone through, there's many examples where companies have chosen names for their products that work perfectly well in their own country, and then they start to go into other markets which have different languages, and that name tends to not be so welcomed in the other country because it's a swearword or it's something that's not appropriate for them for that particular

Daniele Hmm.

Guy product. So I think Ford had this with the with the Pinto going into into Mexico or something like this. And and there's a lot of other examples of this. I'm sure that you can find it with a with a search of product names in foreign countries or something like this. Um, but yeah, I mean, when I've looked at, creating names for, for products or businesses and things like this, I do really consider the sort of name. And you know, I have my business, which is Neolux Consulting. Neolux has been around for a long, long time. I had this way back in Australia when I had a small business there. And it's, it's a mixture of languages that mean "new light". And I don't really know where that came from, but I liked the idea and I liked having an X in the name and yeah, which makes me sound like another tech person. But yeah, I just really liked the name. And then, but the second part of that was also important. So originally it was Neolux Communications and then I've had "Systems" and then I've had "Consulting" and I felt it was important to say, okay, well, what's the primary activity that I'm doing? And what is something that is generic enough that if I need to pivot, that I could keep that same name without, you know, having to change all of my letterheads and going to business registration and change that sort of thing. So "consulting" is very broad, but it's more about personal services. So if I'm doing hands on work and more contracting work, it's not as appropriate. So then you have to go, okay, well, maybe "Consulting" is not the right name. when I was building websites and web applications, then "Systems" made a lot of sense, and now I'm doing a little bit with, with podcasting and stuff. I'm thinking, okay, well, maybe I should register the name Neolux Media or Neolux, you know, go back to Communications, something like this. So I think it's not just the the brand name or the the unique identifier, but also the things that you put around. It can can be important as well, because it can help to explain what you do to other people. And then when you get known enough like Apple Computer, then you can start to drop off the the computer part and just be, you know, Apple. I think I'm a fair way away from that.

Daniele And I think this is a great example because, you know, so many people say, Oh, I love my Neolux name to just be like Apple does. And then you can remember to remind the history of it and say, you know, back in the days when they were not famous, not making billions, they were called Apple computers because they needed to. To make sure that people knew what it was that they were doing and without having to explain it or or or having a tag line or something, you know, having in the name, the activity is is a is a is a very important thing When you're small enough. It just helps a lot. That's also why I've decided to call the the Swiss Innovation Academy Academy, you know, and having Swiss Innovation Academy, which is like the most boring name you could invent ever. Because it's like self explanatory and like, okay, I know what it is. You know, when I arrive on the website, it just by typing it, I know

Guy Yeah.

Daniele what it is. And then Neolux Consulting is basically the same. And I think that could be an additional principle that we can definitely give to, to, to small business owners to help avoid the confusion is to have kind of like this unique branded storytelling element with next to it a bit of a of a clarify. Which might be the industry thing. The type of work that is done, the type of service that it is, and and it makes everything clearer.

Guy I remember with Apple, they got in trouble because of Apple Music, which was the rights holder for the Beatles music. Or the record company that the Beatles music was released under. So there was a lawsuit back in the day that when Apple started to introduce their music services with iTunes, that could they be called Apple? Because Apple Music and Apple Computer could be confused. And usually when we talk about trademarks and intellectual property protections and things like these, it's okay to have a similar name as long as it's not in a similar industry. So Apple Computer and Apple Music were were definitely not in the same industry. So that was fine. But then when Apple started getting into music, then it's like, Whoa, hang on a minute. There could be potential for confusion. So I remember this this lawsuit around around this happening. And I think they settled in the end. And then we saw the Beatles come onto iTunes to big fanfare and all this sort of stuff. So they're obviously everyone's friends again there, but it just shows how important naming is. And I mean, to continue on that that thought and I know where maybe we're going a little bit over time, but it happens in podcasts as well. And there was a recent story about a podcast in Australia that took a a the name of their podcast, and it was the same name as someone else's podcast. And I don't think it was intentional. But it ended up that they neither wanted to change. And the original podcast was quite well known and had got a lot of followers. And the new one was like, Well, I don't think I should have to change my name. Eventually it came to a lawsuit and the new person lost to say, okay, you cannot use this name for your podcast because it's the same as this other name and there can be confusion there. So it was different topics, but it had very similar names. So this is naming is being tested all the time and it can apply to things that you don't think are important, but then suddenly it becomes extremely important. So it's just, you know, having thinking about names is it's something that you need to spend a lot of time on. And do a lot of research on as well. You know, check is the dot com available. If it's not available, who's got it? Could it be a conflict with you? And not just the dotcom, but, you know, the dot D-E, the dot F-R the you know, in different countries and things like this. So yeah, just we were talking about for small businesses, this is a good place to start is to, you know, do your research on this particular name and see if there's a potential for problems further down the track.

Daniele I love how, you know, every one of those aspects. You know, once you go and go deep enough, you know, you see always that there is a a level of complexity that you can that you can explore. But if we keep it on a on a summary level for today, I'd say think about the names that you give to your company, to your services, to the processes that you're having to the meetings you're having, to the projects you're having. Think about those. Think about these criterias. So does it add clarity? Does it add meaning and is it distinguishable enough? So let's a few things that we've talked about. And and then, you know, realize when. When it's needed a new name because it adds a level of meaning that is so great and so important. And when you can just spare yourself a bit of trouble and work and just use a name that already exists.

Guy That's a great wrap up. Thank you very much, Daniele, and thank you for the conversation today. It's been very enlightening, as always.

Daniele Thanks to you, Guy, for hosting. Producing, managing, scheduling and overworking. All the things that you're doing for this podcast. You're doing a lot of work again in the backstage and I'm extremely thankful for all of it

Guy It's always a pleasure. See you on the next episode.

Daniele Cheers.

Centered VO Thanks for listening. We hope this podcast is valuable to you. And if you want to help contribute to our production costs, we embrace the idea of value for value. Where you can return value to us in the form of time, talent or treasure by using a modern podcast player app. You can support us with Boostagrams or streaming value or make a donation at the link in the show notes.The Service Design Principles podcast is hosted by me Guy Martin with Daniele Catalanotto. Music by Mikael Sumsev. Podcast hosting generously provided by Castopod. This is a production of Neolux Consulting.