Guy: Six. It's your fucking job to know what I should buy.should buy.
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Guy: Welcome to Service Design Principles I'm Guy Martin, joined by the author of the ServiceGuy Martin, joined by the author of the Service
Design Principles series of books. Founder of the Swiss Innovation Academy and Service Designthe Swiss Innovation Academy and Service Design
Practitioner, The explicit Daniele Catalanotto.
Daniele: Hi Guy, Definitely one of the adjectives my mum will love.adjectives my mum will love.
Guy: It's a good adjective for this one, because this episode has the explicit tag. Each episodethis episode has the explicit tag. Each episode
we look at one of the principles from your books, the Service Design Principles 1-100. And todaythe Service Design Principles 1-100. And today
it is principle number six. It's your fucking job to know what I should buy. So first thingsjob to know what I should buy. So first things
first. It sounds like this is personal, Daniele.
Daniele: Indeed it is. You know, it's. It's one of those stories, you know, where where afterof those stories, you know, where where after
the experience, you go out and you're just swearing a bit in the streets. And. And that'sswearing a bit in the streets. And. And that's
basically what happens here. basically I was buying flowers for my wife and I'm very bad atbuying flowers for my wife and I'm very bad at
buying flowers. And so I came in saying to the person, I don't know anything about flowers, soperson, I don't know anything about flowers, so
here's what I'm trying to do. As I know my wife loves yellow. I have a budget of 50 bucksloves yellow. I have a budget of 50 bucks
Guy: Mm hmm.
Daniele: and I don't care that much about how it looks because I don't understand it. Culture.looks because I don't understand it. Culture.
Help me do something with 50 bucks in yellow
Guy: Sure.
Daniele: and
Guy: You're the expert.
Daniele: you're the expert. I don't know that stuff. I'm not so interested. Let's be honest.stuff. I'm not so interested. Let's be honest.
And then, you know, the person just kept on asking questions and I was like, No, it's youasking questions and I was like, No, it's you
know, I've been clear in the relationship. I'm giving you the power to make decisions based ongiving you the power to make decisions based on
this new information. Could you just take could you just use the power and know the person? Okay,you just use the power and know the person? Okay,
Do you think she prefers this type of flowers or maybe more roses? I have no idea. But. And domaybe more roses? I have no idea. But. And do
you think it will be more something vertical or more something horizontal? I, I don't know aboutmore something horizontal? I, I don't know about
this. And, you know, and.
Guy: But she's asking questions. That's good, right? Isn't it?right? Isn't it?
Daniele: Yeah, but the whole deal for me was please don't ask me question. Don't make me feelplease don't ask me question. Don't make me feel
even dumber than what I am, you know,
Guy: Ah, right!
Daniele: And
Guy: Mm hmm.
Daniele: that was very hard for me. It was like she this person coming back and asking questionsshe this person coming back and asking questions
where it's revealed how illiterate I am with flowers, you know, and how maybe I'm in anflowers, you know, and how maybe I'm in an
unemotional husband because I don't know what's her favorite flower, you know, And I don't knowher favorite flower, you know, And I don't know
if she likes tall flowers or small flowers. And and there, you know, you you I think maybeand there, you know, you you I think maybe
emotionally I got out like, feeling like I'm a bad husband, you know, even if I bought flowersbad husband, you know, even if I bought flowers
for it for for my wife, you know, which I think wasn't the goal for me, you know, in the in thatwasn't the goal for me, you know, in the in that
experience.
Guy: So you want you want some guidance on on. You know, I don't know the answers to any ofYou know, I don't know the answers to any of
your questions, but let's. Let's try some. It's a first draft again, right? That's, you know,a first draft again, right? That's, you know,
these flowers. I don't know. Maybe when I take them home, I'll know a little bit more next time.them home, I'll know a little bit more next time.
But I'm telling you now, whatever question you can ask me, I'm going to say I'm not sure. Ican ask me, I'm going to say I'm not sure. I
don't know.
Daniele: Yeah. And, and even if you want to, to, to have this conversation bit where you say it'sto have this conversation bit where you say it's
important that the person interacts, you know, then you still can frame it in a way you know,then you still can frame it in a way you know,
that is helpful.
Guy: Mm.
Daniele: for example Try to get in questions where you know people have the answer.where you know people have the answer.
Daniele: if the person asked, might I ask, how old is your wife? Oh, she's about 34. Okay. Andold is your wife? Oh, she's about 34. Okay. And
do you live in a home or do you do you live in a home or in apartments? You know, and askinghome or in apartments? You know, and asking
these kind of questions where I didn't feel like, oh, I know my wife, I'm a good husband, you know,oh, I know my wife, I'm a good husband, you know,
But then it gives her information maybe to select the type of flower based on age andselect the type of flower based on age and
preferences
Guy: Right.
Daniele: and then say, okay, so based on what you're telling me, you know, as you are livingyou're telling me, you know, as you are living
in the city, which is a bit far away from here, I'm going to pick a type of flower that willI'm going to pick a type of flower that will
stay healthy until you go home. And at that age, usually, you know, my other customers who areusually, you know, my other customers who are
female prefer to buy this kind of flowers. So I would recommend that one. And then I would feelwould recommend that one. And then I would feel
like, Oh, this is very personalized, this is special.special.
Guy: Mm hmm. So it's not that you are being asked questions. It was the type of questions.asked questions. It was the type of questions.
It was
Daniele: it's like asking questions that I don't have the answer about.have the answer about.
Guy: And you've been clear that you didn't have the answers, too.the answers, too.
Daniele: And which then gives you the feeling that there is incompetence because you're like,that there is incompetence because you're like,
if you're asking me questions that I don't have the answer about, it means that you don't knowthe answer about, it means that you don't know
what you what you're doing.
Guy: You can't connect my needs to what you're offering and say, okay, well, I live an houroffering and say, okay, well, I live an hour
away, so I need something that will last. You can't connect that to you know. Well, thatcan't connect that to you know. Well, that
eliminates this particular type of flower or this particular arrangement or something. Right.this particular arrangement or something. Right.
Daniele: so I'm extremely happy that we have these conversations because because sometimesthese conversations because because sometimes
there is kind of like a light bulb moment and and this is happening, which is I think what'sand this is happening, which is I think what's
happening here is that it's a lot about
revealing that the person that the service provider isn't in in a power where he when heprovider isn't in in a power where he when he
asks the question, it's a question that generates an answer which is not I don't know,generates an answer which is not I don't know,
but which always the people can answer with yes, no or something specific. Because when you dono or something specific. Because when you do
that, it gives the impression to people that you know of what you're talking about, because youknow of what you're talking about, because you
would never ask a question that where the answer will be, I don't know.will be, I don't know.
Guy: Mm.
Daniele: And therefore, this is a very good point here, which is it's the way you're askingpoint here, which is it's the way you're asking
questions can change how people feel about your own and about your own competences. So if youown and about your own competences. So if you
ask a question where people can answer all the ways, then you will figure, Oh, the personways, then you will figure, Oh, the person
asking me the question is very competent because she asked me a question when I can feelshe asked me a question when I can feel
competent.
Guy: Right
Guy: . You're not expected to be a florist and be able to answer the questions that a floristbe able to answer the questions that a florist
would answer
Daniele: Exactly.
Guy: or that your your wife would answer, you know, because you're notknow, because you're not
Daniele: Yeah.
Guy: your wife either.
Daniele: Yeah, indeed.
Guy: So no, that's, that's really good. I, I also go to florists occasionally and buy myalso go to florists occasionally and buy my
flowers. You know, go back to our first episode where we talked about, you know, you don't justwhere we talked about, you know, you don't just
have the courtship. You have to keep delivering throughout the marriage. there's two flowersthroughout the marriage. there's two flowers
that my wife doesn't like. And I'm sure to say that, but anything else. I don't know. So I say,that, but anything else. I don't know. So I say,
okay, I need a bunch of flowers without this flower and this flower because it reminds myflower and this flower because it reminds my
wife of funerals that, you know, death flowers or somethingor something
Daniele: Mm.
Guy: like these. But then it's like, Oh, what colours that I don't know what's in season. Okay.colours that I don't know what's in season. Okay.
And these are. I'll put something together for you and then I'll do something. And then it'syou and then I'll do something. And then it's
like I learn something from it as I. Why did you pick that? It allows also for me to askpick that? It allows also for me to ask
questions and learn. And there's a, a, a potential for education there that actually aspotential for education there that actually as
this relationship goes on and I continue to come back and buy flowers from you because you've,back and buy flowers from you because you've,
you know, provided such good service and you've made it easy for me to come back that that I canmade it easy for me to come back that that I can
learn more. And then my requests in future will make your job easier as well, because I'll comemake your job easier as well, because I'll come
in and say, okay, I need a bunch of flowers. That's this budget. I don't want this, I don'tThat's this budget. I don't want this, I don't
want this. It's going to be this colour and it's for this particular occasion and and throw thatfor this particular occasion and and throw that
in. Everything else is up to you.
Daniele: yeah. And, and this kind of interactions, you know, that, that there areinteractions, you know, that, that there are
learning interactions too, which is I think a very good point is that if people don't know,very good point is that if people don't know,
you know, you can kind of give a bit of a of an extra information and see if they're interestedextra information and see if they're interested
in it. And if you feel that they are interested in it, then you can give a bit more and thenin it, then you can give a bit more and then
they they see, Oh, I wasn't just buying flowers. I learned something about flowers, which meansI learned something about flowers, which means
that next time I will ask this question.
Guy: hmm.
Daniele: So that's, oh, now I've learned something.something.
Guy: It's a really interesting interaction to do it that way. And I try. Maybe I'm an annoyingit that way. And I try. Maybe I'm an annoying
person. I always try and learn something from every interaction I have or come away at leastevery interaction I have or come away at least
with, with some extra value. So, yeah, I think it's important that if I'm coming to you as anit's important that if I'm coming to you as an
expert that that you show that competency in the questions that you ask and if I'm if I, if Iquestions that you ask and if I'm if I, if I
don't know something that you feel, oh well you should probably know this, then help me, help meshould probably know this, then help me, help me
understand it. And the next time it won't be as slow a transaction or as annoying or I don'tslow a transaction or as annoying or I don't
know.
Daniele: Absolutely. I think there is a very important thing that you said here, which isimportant thing that you said here, which is
when I come to you as an expert, which means that I believe you are the expert.that I believe you are the expert.
Guy: Hmm.
Daniele: And and I think this is very important asas
salespeople have to notice this, like to who am I coming today among am I coming to the expertI coming today among am I coming to the expert
or am I coming to someone who's selling? Because sometimes you perfectly know what you want. Andsometimes you perfectly know what you want. And
the thing that you don't want is people asking you questions,you questions,
Guy: Right.
Daniele: you know, because you say, Hey, I want 12 roses. This colour, please do it. And it's12 roses. This colour, please do it. And it's
like, okay, I'm just coming to buy flowers. Other times it's like, Oh, I'm coming to anOther times it's like, Oh, I'm coming to an
expert and other times I'm coming to an educator,
Guy: Mm
Daniele: which means now I'm not coming just for a service where you give me something gradesa service where you give me something grades
based on the little knowledge I have, but you expand also my knowledge and being able to toexpand also my knowledge and being able to to
see that sometimes I'm coming to you because I want the expert. Sometimes I'm coming to youwant the expert. Sometimes I'm coming to you
because I want something from you. But I'd love to you to educate me. And sometimes I don't wantto you to educate me. And sometimes I don't want
anything from you outside of the product that I'm asking.I'm asking.
Guy: Perfect place to end it. Thanks very much.
Daniele: Thanks to you. Cheers!
