Waiting...

Guy Welcome to Service Design Principles. I'm Guy Martin, joined by the author of the Service Design Principles series of books, founder of the Swiss Innovation Academy, and service design practitioner, the empathetic Daniele Catalanotto. Hi, Daniele.

Daniele Such a pleasure to be again with you today.

Guy Yeah, it's fantastic whenever we get to meet up. So thank you for coming. Now, each episode, we look at some of the principles from Daniele's book, Service Design Principles 1-100. And today we're talking about waiting. Now, waiting is almost inevitable, whether it's in the line at the airport or on the phone, waiting for a customer service representative. And in most cases, our time is really important to them. Well, so they say. So how can businesses make waiting more bearable?

Daniele Yeah, it's a very good question. And it's a thing that I have evolved with, you know. You know, when I started in service design, I was like, very driven in no way it shouldn't be a thing that is happening, you know. You know, and being very much into this kind of fight of, oh, this sucks, this is bad. And now I'm like, hey, but sometimes we should let people wait a little bit. You know, there is value in the slowness also. So I have now a bit of a more nuanced answer, but basically the one key element for me that comes when we speak about wait is understanding that time is a perception. And once we understand that, it unlocks a lot.

Guy So go into that a little more, especially about it may be okay to make people wait.

Daniele Yeah. Yeah, so there is a, I don't remember the name right now, but there is this great guy doing behavioral economics stuff. And he has a very good TED talk about that, where he basically gives you an example where he says, so imagine being in a train from London to Paris, and no Wi-Fi, it sucks. Now imagine you're in the same train, you have no Wi-Fi, but you have waiters and waitresses who bring you champagne and who are in the most lovely dresses and costumes that you could dream of. Once you arrive to Paris, what you would say is, could I just go back to London and redo that again? And so this is a very interesting way of seeing time, where it's not just only how much time do I spend in it, how much time do I invest in it, but how's the quality of the time I have? And so I think there, there is a lot of elements that we can play with. And so there are simple changes that we can do. So changing the perception that people have of the time they're spending, so giving them something to do. You know, obviously when you're busy, time flies by, but when you're just waiting and doing nothing, you know, there is even a study that is very interesting where they realize that people would prefer to get electric shocks that wait. So it's, so waiting doing nothing. So that's the important caveat here, waiting doing nothing. And so people are not used to get alone with their thoughts. So changing our perception of time is definitely one of the elements. But wait is something that can be very important too. So for example, there are key medical procedures, at least here in Switzerland, where when you want to get one, you'll get first a meeting with the doctor, and then he will tell you, okay, before we can do the medical procedure, we'll have by law to make you wait, a number of months, and then you can take your decision. So we inform you about all the risks or what it implies, but by law, we want you to wait because we believe that rushed decisions are sometimes not the best decisions. So sometimes wait is good.

Guy So similar to when you go and buy a car, in some countries it's mandated you have three days cooling off period.

Daniele Oh, I didn't know that.

Guy Once you sign the documents, you have three days where you can back out of the deal with no penalty. So, and it's funny that they call it a cooling off period because again, it's, you know, making that rash decision and forcing you to wait. If we look at the wait time to get a gun license or to buy a gun, this is probably also a good thing, right? If you're hot under the collar and you're angry, you've just had a bad experience and you want to, you know, emotionally get revenge or something like this, it's probably good for society that you have to wait before you can go out and purchase a gun and, you know, purchase ammunition and things like this if you didn't already have it.

Daniele And there are studies that back this up. So I've been once in a, don't ask me why, but I've been in a suicide prevention convention for a week. And so had the chance to get a lot of the academic people teaching all the things that work for suicide prevention. And one of the things that really works well is kind of these delays where you say, we're gonna put in, and it's just a policy matter, you know. So that's kind of like, you know, age during this thing, you know, where being maybe a bit younger, I had maybe a view of weight being this thing that we have to chase and make feel, so maybe not remove it, but at least change the perception so that you don't feel that you weight. But I feel that sometimes, you know, getting older, giving space for people to weight, even if it sucks, you know, sometimes it's good. And so that's kind of like how I would give a bit of more nuanced aspect. But if we are also deeply honest, you know, a lot of the waiting time that happens in businesses, you know, could be avoided easily and isn't of a profound quality that brings reflection. You know, when I'm waiting at the dentist, it's not that time where I reflect deeply on my life choices.

Guy And I assume there's no waitresses bringing champagne to you at the dentist as well.

Daniele And which would be great.

Guy That could be an idea.

Daniele I would go to that dentist.

Guy There's an opportunity there.

Daniele So that's kind of like the bit of the introduction to KFS. It's not all the way it is bad, but also recognizing that a lot of the wait that happens is not needed or can be kind of changed through simple things of perception.

Guy Right. So talking about perception, how can we like, if there's a forced wait, if I'm on the phone to my telephone provider, or I have to go and do something with the local government or something like this, where inevitably I have to wait and there's no joy in that. So what can we do or what can those organizations do to make that more tolerable or even enjoyable?

Daniele So there are a few very simple things, which then depend on if it's a hotline, obviously then comes all the technological question of the hotline system that you bought, et cetera. But today you see a few companies doing something which is pretty smart, which is a kind of a callback thing, where instead of waiting in line that someone serves you, you just say, okay, I'd like to get a phone callback. And so there are basically two ways of doing it, from what I've seen. One, which is kind of the low-cost way, which is scheduling an appointment. So I'm speaking now for the small businesses. So for a small business that says, oh, we don't have a hotline thing, we just have a phone number, but people have to wait, we put them on hold. You can use tools like Calendly, where people just can see a calendar and they book a time and say, yes, I want to speak with someone. Maybe it's not right now, right now, that's okay. And a lot of cases, it's not right now, right now, and it could wait an hour, it could wait a day. But then people choose the time that is best for them. They say, oh, I have my kids at school between that time and that time. That's a perfect time to call me back. So that's one way of doing it.

Guy It's kind of like it's unexpected that they didn't want to wait. If they could get through straight away, that would be great. But then you're giving them the solution to that as well and saying, okay, but I know this is annoying, but here's a way that we can solve this that's not too difficult or not too hard on you.

Daniele Exactly, and so basically what you could do at that moment is say, hey, is it something extremely urgent? Then call this number, you might have to wait a few minutes or schedule a call and you can choose the best time for you. So that's kind of like the not getting people in the hotline first element. And the other one is when you call hotline, so this is something that happens now also is that they say, Oh, would you like us to call you back when there is someone free? And then you say, OK, cool. So I don't have to listen to the stupid music. I don't have to put it on loud so that I hear it. And, you know, it's kind of messing my email flow while I'm waiting and doing that. And I'm getting angry because I'm hearing for the hundredth time. Your time is precious to us. It's like, yeah, fuck you.

Guy Prove it.

Daniele So this is kind of one thing. And then there are the little kind of, how would you say that? The little polite things, you know. If we know that people might wait more than three minutes, how is it that these loops in hotlines, you know, are 30-second loops?

Guy Oh, that's a good point.

Daniele So maybe we just have to think about a loop that's, you know, design a loop of five minutes.

Guy Right.

Daniele And then, you know, don't say stuff that if you would hear it a second time, would get you angry. So your time is precious. Hearing it once is good. Hearing it twice, it really sucks. So just be a mindful guy, like thinking, if I'm giving this information twice, will they be happy to have it twice or not?

Guy Yeah. No, it's a really good point because when you start to hear, you start to recognize, oh, hang on. I've heard this horrible music before, or even nice music, even if they have nice music. But you've heard it before or you've heard it the third time, you start to go, okay, I've been waiting for a while here because this classical piece of music that normally lasts 10 minutes has now repeated because they've only taken a short clip. So again, it's about that perception. By adding music, if you're not mindful about the length of that music, you can actually make the perception of waiting worse.

Daniele And especially if, because often there are these edge cases, you know, average waiting time is maybe three minutes. So you think, oh, we're going to do it perfectly for these three minutes. But the few people who have to wait 20 minutes having a three minute loop, you know, it will feel like horror because they will notice that you designed it not for them because they will notice they never thought that it could be repeated 200 times. And so you know now that this is an error that is happening. But if it was meant to be something long, then you say, okay, it's okay. Kind of normal. You know, they have a lot of people. It happens. Shit happens. It's okay. Maybe I'm a bit angry, but I don't realize it's like the music doesn't add to it that this isn't normal. I think this is definitely an important point. But I'm very curious because, Guy, you have a very good sensibility for service design stuff and service experiences. So what are the things that you have seen in waiting time where you said, oh, this is smart, or where you have been through something which was difficult and where you were like, oh, if they just did that, this would have changed completely my experience.

Guy The first thing that comes to mind when I start thinking about changing the perception of waiting time was something that they did with elevators. And so I can't claim any credit on this at all. This was a study that was done a number of years ago when they're trying to reduce the perception of waiting times with elevators and they put a mirror there. So they didn't change anything about the elevators. They didn't change the sequencing or the times or speed them up or spend hundreds of thousands of euro to upgrade them. They just put a mirror in on each of the lift lobbies. And then that time that you're spent waiting was then occupied because we like to look at ourselves.

Daniele Fix our hair.

Guy Exactly. And even on like a video conference call or something, the default is that your video is visible and then you're drawn to looking at yourself because you're always saying, am I making a good impression? So, incidentally, that's one of the first things I try and switch off so that I can connect better to people and move the focus from me to the camera, something like this. Anyway, so by adding that mirror, we're now occupying our time. And then suddenly the perception of the wait times decreases. So that was a good study. And then there was another study, a change that they made, and I think it might have been at one of the US airports. And they discovered that if you get to the baggage carousel before your bags, you get even more frustrated and you say, oh, I have to wait so long. So they rerouted the route from the plane, from the terminal where you arrive, and you had to walk longer to get to the baggage carousel. So by the time you got there, your bag was waiting for you. And the satisfaction ratings with the airport actually went up. And I thought that was really clever.

Daniele It's lovely how these examples, they're pretty well known. I've included, I think, that one in one of the next books of the series. And they really show that, which is sometimes doing something which is counterintuitive, like making it longer, indeed just makes it shorter in the mind of people. And I think this is definitely very inspiring. And I'd be curious, you know, so from the conversation we're having, I'm kind of having a bit of a mental framework that I'm coming up with, which is how to choose when weight is good, when weight should be fixed, and when you should work on the perception. Because I think there is kind of these elements, you know, because not all weight is weight. So if we imagine this, you know, I think the first question that we should ask ourselves when we have something that is weight is like, okay, does it add value that it's weight? This is the first question. And if you say yes, because it makes people think, you know, and it gives them the space, even if it's uncomfortable, you know, sometimes it's uncomfortable to be alone with your thoughts, but it's really needed. Then you say, no, okay, this is something needed. Or how can we make it something that brings a value? So this is kind of the first question. And if we say no, this is not needed, then the question is, is it technically feasible to remove that weight? So can we just remove it because it's just a process logistical thing where, hey, a few departments have to work together and they can streamline stuff and no weight will happen, or we have to buy another technology and we can remove it. And then there is the other question. And so if the answer is no, because it will cost too much, it's too complex, etc. then we can jump on the perception. So how can we change the perception of time? And it's only then that we can then really go and say, okay, if we can't change anything, and if it has no value, then we can add to it elements that it's a mirror, it's make it a bit longer, so that people do something else, you know, giving distractions. Or, you know, as Disney does that also, you know, in the waiting line, they use the waiting line to give pre-shows of other elements. So while you're waiting, because you have to wait, there is no possibility to not make you wait. They say, hey, we're going to put a clown in the middle. And, you know, kids maybe will say at the end of the thing, oh, you know, the space mountain thing, which was enormous, wasn't fun, but the clown, he was really cool. And that's okay.

Guy It's like you bring home a toy or something for your cat and the cat ends up playing with the box more. It doesn't want to play with the toy.

Daniele Yeah, exactly. And which would be kind of the best sign, you know, if you have someone say, oh, the best moment of your experience was the waiting time.

Guy Yeah.

Daniele And it's like, okay, we did a great job.

Guy But that doesn't mean that you should try and extend the waiting times to extend satisfaction. It doesn't quite work that way, I'm guessing.

Daniele Yeah, indeed.

Guy You mentioned the queues at Disney, and I think one thing that they do well, and I'm thinking I live close to Legoland in Denmark, is putting the waiting times or the estimated times in the queue. So there's physical signs to say, from this point, you can expect to wait about 10 minutes. From this point, you can expect to wait about 8 minutes. You know, and giving a lot of information to the guests. So I guess it's important because there's one thing about perception. But then there's also information and transparency and reducing uncertainty, which I suppose also helps in these situations.

Daniele Yeah, definitely. And there is the same under-promise over-delivery. And in these moments, you can do basically the same. If you know that usually it takes 15 minutes, say that it takes 20.

Guy Build a buffer.

Daniele It's a good thing. Worst case happens is the one who's waiting 20 minutes, he will say, they got it really on time. They did their math really well. And the 95% of the people will say, hey, they are quicker than they should. But it's just because you changed the promise. And I think often we, as professionals, we want to sell our best selves or as organizations. And sometimes we should better sell our worst self and let people be surprised by how good we can be.

Guy I was going to say, it's like the Scotty Principle from Star Trek, where he says, you know, I think he's teaching an apprentice or something like this. And you say, you never tell them how long it's actually going to take. You always double it and then, you know, you deliver before. And that's how you end up a star engineer sort of thing. And I think a lot of project managers and things have taken that on board as well. And sort of, you know, overestimate the time that it might take to deliver something and then deliver it early. So that might be a whole other set of principles there though.

Daniele But I think, you know, it shows how these elements are linked together. You know, that waiting time isn't just about waiting time. It's also a promise that you're making. And that when you make promises, you should be smart about it. And that there is, again, that too little information will be a problem. You know, not knowing how much it usually takes will be a problem. But seeing, you know, a panel every five meters that says, okay, now from here it should be 20 minutes from here, 15 minutes from here, 10 minutes, will get you like, okay, I'm going to look at my stopwatch to see if it is true. You know, and then it gets in another way, which isn't useful. But there is one specific element that when it comes to waiting time, thinking about Disney and this is, you know, I think a lot of services could steal stuff from Disney, especially because their way of thinking, you know, they are made for kids who have no patience, you know, and I think there are very good examples. For example, there is one which is, you know, an airport in London, I don't remember which one, but they do something which is very smart, where they have these lines where you have to go through security. And obviously security in England, you know, doesn't feel like security in Switzerland, where security in England, you know, there you have terrorist attack and stuff, where you see people with guns. So for us Swiss people, you know, this is normal, you know, we don't know what is a terrorist attack. So for us going through security is just like seeing a nice guy saying hello, and that's it. But there it feels like a very, very strange...

Guy A different experience.

Daniele Yeah, it's a different experience, yeah. And if you're with kids, you know, it's going to be a stressful one, because you don't want your kids to do fun stuff in the middle of that waiting line, you know, and shouting and doing... So they did one thing that is very smart, you know, at the start of the line, you have a little box where kids can take a little game, which is a thing on paper, and they give a pen, where it's then a little kind of game that they have to do while they are on the pass of the waiting line. And so they have cues that come through the line with little problems that they have to solve, and it then gives them the solution of the mystery once they arrive to the police guy, which is super smart, because then you're like, hey, okay, so we're going to work on this clue, and the next one is there. Okay, so now we can work a little bit on that, and the kid has to stay next to you, because there is a reason to stay on the line now, and I think there there is a lot to think about, you know, when we go look at how other industries deal with time and weight, and then we can say, hey, how could we import this? And then we see examples like that one. I don't know if they stole it directly from Disney, but it feels like it, you know, that they understood that children are also a part of the waiting time and that if the kids get angry, it's going to make the parents angry, which will make the kids even more angry, which will fuck up the situation for everybody who is in the room.

Guy Right.

Daniele And understanding that is definitely another element, which can be interesting.

Guy I think that game might be fun for the adults as well. They start to get invested in it too. Yeah.

Daniele And they did it in a very smart way, because instead of being a random game, it was a game about airport security and this kind of stuff where it taught you why is there so much security? Why is it important? Why is there a dog? What can the dog do? It's like, oh, this is interesting. So it's not only a fun moment, it's also an education moment. And maybe this brings us to another principle. You know, there are so many about wait. You see, I could ramble for hours, but I will just share that one more, which is a company does that on their hotline, which is super smart. So you're on the hotline, you're waiting. And while you wait, they teach you something about their service. So they say, did you know that? And they speak to you about a hidden feature, or one of these pro features that you have. Oh, in fact, I didn't know that I could do that in that software or in that service. And so you go out of the thing thinking, hey, sure, I had to wait, but now I'm going to be more productive with what I learned. So it's kind of okay.

Guy Yeah, except when they're halfway through in the saying, and the secret to this is, hello. You mentioned here in principle 18 and 19, you're talking about using phones and being able to use your smartphone. Now, in some circumstances, that's not okay. Like in the customs line or the security line at the airport, very often they say, do not use your phone. Although I think that's more about taking pictures than it is actually using your phone. But in a way, you say that you shouldn't forbid people from using their phone or occupying themselves. And I guess that's about using their time effectively or in a way that they feel they're in more control.

Daniele Yeah. Another way of seeing it is, which is a bit more critical. Obviously, age makes you a little bit more critical. Most people are addicts. And you wouldn't take the drugs out of an addict in a waiting line. That would be a very bad idea. Saying to an addict, oh, I'm going to make you wait for a few hours, and all the drugs that you're used to, that you take every three seconds, I'm going to take them out. That's basically the phones. And most people are addicted to their technology. When they don't know what to do, they open it, they scroll a little bit, they go on Instagram, check their mails, and do this kind of stuff. So if you want to get people angry, take out their addiction. That's going to work really well. So it's a bit critical to say it like that, because it says something bad about the state of our world. But at the same time, I think it's not as... Depending on the businesses, it's not our place to give a judgment on that. But there are places where it's good to make that judgment. For example, there are some cafes, I know one in Geneva, where they very clearly tell you, if you enter in here, we don't want to see any device. This is a device-free zone. This is a place where we speak to people, we watch people in the eyes. Even when we wait, it's a human experience. It's a choice. Obviously, there are some people who will never go there because they will say, you're stealing my addiction, which is not good. But for many places, it's how important is it really that you forbid people to use a phone? As you said, I think the really important thing, security-wise or privacy-wise, is that people don't take pictures. I think that's true for hospitals, that's true for government services, where you don't want people to take pictures. That's a reasonable thing to ask for. But there are so many other things that people can do on their phones and take pictures. I would prefer to say, just allow people. What's the cost of allowing people to be on their phone?

Guy That makes sense. Our smartphone usage is in a way making us dumber. These smartphones make us dumber in some respects. Or they make us more dependent. You talk about the little dopamine hits and things like this. It relates to addiction. Addiction is the right word for it. As you say, stopping people from doing it, you're passing judgment. However, you can recognize that people need this little dopamine hit. Recognizing that makes their experience or their perception of that waiting experience a little bit more tolerable. Taking it away makes it incredibly less tolerable.

Daniele Especially because the places where people ask you to not have the phone is definitely the place where I think people should have the choice to have their phone. So it's the waiting room of a hospital. Before getting the answer on do you have cancer or not, I have to say it's maybe not the moment where I be the most mindful. Where I might just want to look at something to be distracted. And I think it's a very valid thing to ask for that. Or being in a government office where you got fined for something and you have to go and chat with someone. It's not a comfortable thing. You know that you will be in a conversation that you don't want to have, but you will have. So giving people just this five-minute break in their life before they get into the very shitty situation, I think it's something where we can be graceful enough to say, hey, it's okay.

Guy Don't make the rules for the worst of the people. Not everyone is going to do it, but if you ask politely, please don't take photos and you can use your phone, the majority will respect that, and they'll understand why as well.

Daniele And I think here you bring also this point, which is very important, which is the why of the weight, and why we put some constraints on aspects of the weight in time. A good example here again is a hospital in Biel, in Switzerland, where when you enter in it and you're in the weighting area, there is a big poster explaining to you how weight happens here. Basically, they say, based on the emergency, someone might get before you. That's normal?

Guy Triage.

Daniele Exactly. Basically, they explain it to you. They say, this is how we do it. Basically, we're saying you should wait 30 minutes, but that is if no bigger emergency than you arrives. We're thankful of your patience when something bigger than you is coming. I think this is smart.

Guy Yeah, absolutely. Especially in that situation where most of the time, we expect that first in is first served. You get into a queue and then you get served. But in this case, it doesn't work like that. People are coming in expecting to wait in the same way that they've waited before, and then suddenly they see people skipping the queue in front of them, quote unquote. But they're not skipping the queue. It's a different waiting process. So explaining that is super critical, I would think.

Daniele And explain the value of the wait. That's something that we can do. And explain the why is definitely also an important element. So if we summarize these different elements, so we have this selection process where we say, okay, not all wait is the same. So we can say, hey, once we identify that there is wait, is it useful? Yes, no. If no, can it be removed? Yes, no. If no, then what can we do to change the perception? And then in general, we can add to that, that if there is wait, we can always explain the why. And then when there is wait, we can then also use it as an opportunity to create relationship, to create knowledge, or also just to offer, you know, fun, amusement. So we can use it as a proxy for other things. And so getting there, I think, is just the understanding that not all wait is equal and we can be very creative with it.

Guy There's another waiting scenario, which I think benefits maybe the people on the business side as opposed to the customer side. And so there's two situations that I can think of. When you have an outage, for example, and someone's phoning up and they want to say, okay, well, my electricity is out or my TV is out or something like this. And normally you would expect to, okay, I've got to talk to someone and tell them that my TV is out. But if you put them on hold and there's a message on that on hold to say, we're aware of outages in your area and it'll be fixed within 30 minutes or we have people working on it, then that may already have saved you from hanging on. And you can say, oh, okay, well, I'll hang up. They know about it. It's being done. But if you got straight through to a person, you have to explain to them and they go, yes, we know about it, so blah, blah, blah. So in that case, maybe it's easier that you don't get through to a person straight away. So that little enforced waiting time of, you know, even if someone's available of 10, 20, 30 seconds is maybe okay. And then if your problem doesn't relate to that outage, then you can hang on and still talk to them. And it may be in that case that the customer service representatives are super busy anyway because they're dealing with this outage. So it reduces the demand on those representatives. So that was one thing that came to mind. The other thing I think is, and it's kind of a paradox, but it reminds me of the outage of teaching someone to fish as opposed to fishing for them. So when I've worked in service roles before and someone has phoned up or they've sent a message in saying, I need some help with this. And you go, okay, in a way, I feel that you should already know how to do this. I'm not saying this to them, but in my head, I'm saying that. So I'm actually just going to wait. I'm going to wait for half an hour before I respond to this and just see what happens, because in this case, it's not a life-threatening situation. It's something that they're just used to. I have a problem. I have to call support. But then making them wait for 30 minutes, they go, what can I do with that 30 minutes? Maybe I'll try and fix it myself. Or maybe I'll go back through the manual and see if there's anything I can do. And then in the end, 25 minutes later, I get another message saying, actually, I worked it out. Thank you anyway. So that enforced waiting has helped them work out the answer to the problem themselves, which I guess gives them a bit of satisfaction to say, they were pretty clever to figure it out themselves. They didn't have to wait for someone to get back. And the next time that happens, maybe they won't call support first thing. Maybe they'll just try again themselves. And so there's that education and that knowledge thing there. But if I had answered the call straight away and responded instantly, that opportunity may have never occurred.

Daniele Indeed. And it asks the question, you know, what's the brand image that our waiting time gives? So for example, or service image too, you know. So for example, here in that case, I would assume this is a service that is very professional, you know, that wants people to be educated, that wants people to be able to solve the problem by themselves, because it might be something quite expensive, where we say, hey, we don't want you to be forced to call us for every problem and that we have to bill you for everything. It's not our interest. Our interest is that you can use what we offered in a way that's working for you, that you can manage it, and when we need it, we are always here for you. But we would love for you to feel independent. So once the service is that, then adding that weight is also kind of a brand thing where you're giving people this moment of, okay, there are not the people that are going to answer in the second. But if I'm at a luxury hotel where basically the brand image that I want to give is we are of your service for everything and anything because you pay so much that even if you want strawberries at 3 a.m. we're going to get you the strawberries at 3 a.m. We have a guy for that. No worries. And we answer the phone in the second. But then it's a brand image thing where it's not needed per se, but because you want people to have this image of you of being the pure servant, then obviously speed is extremely important. But when we say our service is not a servant, our service is a coach, a professional, a colleague, then an answer in the second will be like the Savior Syndrome. You're trying to step in the life of the person, fixing problems that you shouldn't solve, which the person will be very happy to have the solution for, but which will never create a healthy functioning relationship. It's all a question about what's the kind of relationship that we want to create. Again, there is no one answer to it, which is what makes it very interesting in one way. It shows also that there is an opportunity here to think about the branding of the waiting time. What's the image that we want to create? What's the relationship that we want to create? Do we want to be the servant that is here every time, every two seconds? Or do we want to be the big brother who comes when it's needed? Do we want to be the coach that guides, doesn't do the work for you, but guides? It's a very different relationship.

Guy Yeah. It's been a very interesting conversation journey through this idea about waiting because I came into it thinking, okay, we have to solve waiting. Waiting is a problem, but actually what we've discovered is it's not always a problem. Sometimes it's a benefit, and sometimes it's actually intentional. I guess from that perspective, it depends. It depends on the circumstances. But there's certainly some principles there that will help to guide us through and work out what is needed here, what is the best solution for this specific problem. It's not always going to be the same solution because it's not always the same problem.

Daniele I think the one caveat that we have to bring or the one asterisk to that is it's not because it depends, but it should be an excuse to not do anything. I think this is the one point. You always can start with a few quick wins to show some respect for the waiting time of people by doing small things, and then you can do the deeper reflection. But I think there is a lot of space today for doing small things already and then having the long thinking and the more strategic conversation about the brand image that we want to give with waiting time.

Guy Thank you very much for the great conversation about waiting, and I hope we don't have to wait too long for the next episode.

Daniele And if you have to, it's going to be a great reflection time.

Guy Absolutely. Thanks very much, Daniele. The Service Design Principles podcast is hosted by me, Guy Martin, with Daniele Catalanotto. Music by Mikhail Smusev. This is a production of Neolux Consulting.